Curse

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's harder to have a story and motivation when you're one of 2 million other people commissioned to be the savior of the land.

Which is why the idea of having a separate instance for each player works for GW very well. They are all saving their own parallel universe worlds, you're saving yours.

TBH I'm worried about GW2 becoming less involving because of this. Hope they've found a way to work around it.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic OnyX

YAY not seen "an open letter to A-net" in months w00t

what is even rarer is that it isn't a QQ fest, GZ on this sensible post Khyr

(btw don't expect a-net to actually do anything at all or if they do expect to see it implemented by 2012)

Thanks, as already stated, I am hoping to make an impression for GW2, rather than have them change GW. It's a small enough thing to look at, if you have an eye for it. Unfortunately, because I do have an eye for it, it makes it that much easier for me to be taken out of the game.

Reverend Dr · Jun 12, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

In Pre-searing Ascalon, I was having fun, enjoying some simple quests, met some nice people and the next thing you know, the place is a wreck, people have died, and I felt it.

But you see pre-searing had a better story and quest execution than the rest of the game and every expansion since.

The point I was trying to make is that every quest in the game is go to the target and kill/interact/pickup, go to the next target and repeat. These are the same ultra generic quests that are choking the entire MMO industry to death. It is hard to have a good story and motivation using this type of generic quest structure that has been done to death.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 12, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

But you see pre-searing had a better story and quest execution than the rest of the game and every expansion since.

The point I was trying to make is that every quest in the game is go to the target and kill/interact/pickup, go to the next target and repeat. These are the same ultra generic quests that are choking the entire MMO industry to death. It is hard to have a good story and motivation using this type of generic quest structure that has been done to death.

I think the difference between us is how we approach playing a game like GW. I use the game as a springboard, but that's all it is. My interest is in how each character develops, even if the circumstances remain the same. As a writer, I live each character differently, hence my earlier comments about role-playing.

The quests that interest me most, are quests where other decisions need to be made, such as choosing which child inherits a man's fortune, or choosing between heroes. I also enjoyed polymock and would love to see a version of PVP polymock in GW (though I'm sure it won't happen).

The other issue here is realistic desire for what can be done. Because creating/producing an MMO requires such a huge investment in time/money and energy, it's unlikely that people will try something new and different, for the risk is too great. Same with Hollywood movies and Madison Avenue Publishing. At the end of the day, companies are in business to make money. MMOs make money by appealing to the lowest common denominator. The more thoughtful and creative you are, the more likely you'll soon get tired of the same old thing. Not everyone will notice it, because not everyone is looking for more than they already have.

Look at the fantasy novels that have come out in the last 20 years. A handful of stories, told differently. Adventure, quest stories are STILL adventure quest stories, no matter how involved your background is, how detailed your cities and cultures, there are only so many stories that can be told. Everything else is a variation on it.

If there is a solution to the problem you're referring to, I'm sure I don't know it.

draxynnic · Jun 12, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

In Pre-searing Ascalon, I was having fun, enjoying some simple quests, met some nice people and the next thing you know, the place is a wreck, people have died, and I felt it. That is the kind of thing that, for me, makes GW a stand out game. I tried other games, and never "felt" them.

My primary still has a chip on her shoulder regarding what the Charr did to her mentor (she's a Mesmer primary...

)

I'd agree with the Rinkhal thing - it does stretch the suspension of disbelief somewhat that, in an undercover mission, a bunch of supposed pirates are going to go off on their own to hunt rinkhal. If there were reasons for it - both a reason why the characters might do it, and a reason why the Kournan captain wouldn't grow suspicious from the rinkhal-hunting excursions - than it would work, but as it is it just seems to be risking the mission for no good reason.

One possible way of doing it could be to have had the bonus come from some instructions from Ironfist on a note in the Corsair camp about collecting rinkhal parts - giving an excuse as well as an incentive to exterminate the rinkhal to deny them to the corsairs.

Regarding Cantha... actually, many of the missions realistically do have a time pressure in the eyes of the characters even if there isn't a time after which the mission is failed. In Cho's Estate, you want to get to the Minister before something bad happens to him, in Zen Daijun you want to contain the problem before it spreads, in Vizuneh you're trying to catch Shiro... and so on.

On the whole, though, I think Prophecies and Factions represented two different mission reward structures. Prophecies rewards were largely essentially side-quests that happened to occur in the mission zones - some of which were actually related to the mission and others weren't directly related but had to be done now if ever... but others could easily have been left until after the main objectives were complete. Factions, on the other hand, was entirely based on how competantly you completed the mission objectives - those that involved protecting something are based on how many survive, while for others ANet saw speed as the mark of having 'mastered' the mission. Nightfall, however, seemed to be the result of ANet learning from and blending the two reward structures - largely keeping the 'bonus' objectives intuitively linked to, or at least compatible with, the primary objectives (with the exception of the Rinkhal sidequest) and keeping timed missions as an occasional thing rather than an overwhelming majority.

MisterB · Jun 12, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Make Captain Besuz into a corrupt smuggler/poacher/whatever. Put one of the Rinkahl monitors near him, and make killing one trigger a dialog asking the party of "corsairs" to go and kill them to collect whatever trophy. Since there are no Rinkahl on the mainland of Elona, and the captain is presumably being watched by his fellow Kournans, the party represents an opportunity for the greedy captain. Have him tell us that the Rinkahl( insert trophy like horn, tooth, spine, what have you) is prized on the mainland, and he'll make it worth your while to retrieve 1 ... 5 of them. Insert reward dialogue, etc.

The bonus in that mission is pretty random from a story standpoint.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 12, 2009, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Make Captain Besuz into a corrupt smuggler/poacher/whatever. Put one of the Rinkahl monitors near him, and make killing one trigger a dialog asking the party of "corsairs" to go and kill them to collect whatever trophy. Since there are no Rinkahl on the mainland of Elona, and the captain is presumably being watched by his fellow Kournans, the party represents an opportunity for the greedy captain. Have him tell us that the Rinkahl( insert trophy like horn, tooth, spine, what have you) is prized on the mainland, and he'll make it worth your while to retrieve 1 ... 5 of them. Insert reward dialogue, etc.

The bonus in that mission is pretty random from a story standpoint.

Great idea! I love it. He could sell rinkhal talons as wards against evil or to improve libido. It's perfect. lol

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 12, 2009, 05:31 AM // 05:31

I should say, that the examples I've raised are some of the most obvious, but they are far from all the examples I can think of.

In the Rihlon Refuge mission, we're asked to kill the Drought. We're told that turning off the water weakens it. We're given bonus to defeat it while it's stronger. From a roleplaying point of view, that makes no sense, because in the game, I'm trying to kill it, so it makes more sense to have it weak than strong. I'm not interested in playing a game, I'm trying to save Kourna and the Elon River.

What I want, above anything, is not to whine about a great game, but to point out how a great game can be improved, with little cost to the company.

I chose my examples as stand out examples.

There are flaws in ALL games, and GW is no exception. But there is, in GW a brilliance that so far outshines the flaws, I almost feel bad bringing up the whole issue.

Probably the only reason I did, was because GW 2 isn't out yet, and maybe, just maybe, someone at Anet will see this post and have something to think about.

Another angle that will help a small but dedicated percentage of the gaming population enjoy the game more, again, without having to invest much to do so.

draxynnic · Jun 12, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

I should say, that the examples I've raised are some of the most obvious, but they are far from all the examples I can think of.

In the Rihlon Refuge mission, we're asked to kill the Drought. We're told that turning off the water weakens it. We're given bonus to defeat it while it's stronger. From a roleplaying point of view, that makes no sense, because in the game, I'm trying to kill it, so it makes more sense to have it weak than strong. I'm not interested in playing a game, I'm trying to save Kourna and the Elon River.

Aye, that is a weird one.

I've always thought of it as being because the Waterworks do actually have a purpose besides serving as a suitable home for the Drought (whether that purpose was actually its primary purpose or whether Varesh knew she'd be summoning the Drought and built the Waterworks primarily for that with its public function as an excuse in unknown). While shutting down the pumps weakens the Drought, it also interferes with the normal operation of the Waterworks which may have negative effects on the farmers who are supplied by the works. Killing the Drought is obviously the main priority (the farmers aren't going to get any water at all with a demon called 'the Drought' sitting in the water supply), but if you can do that without interfering with the site's operations, so much the better.

(I vaguely remember there being implications that even without the Drought that the existence of the waterworks was causing more harm than good, but that doesn't necessarily mean shutting it down abruptly is better than leaving it running until a more planned-out solution can be found.)

Verene · Jun 12, 2009, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

While shutting down the pumps weakens the Drought, it also interferes with the normal operation of the Waterworks which may have negative effects on the farmers who are supplied by the works.

That's how I always thought of it. Sure, getting rid of the Drought ASAP is important, but so is doing so without harming everything and everyone else in that area, which could happen by shutting off the water. And the Sunspears have always struck me as the type to try and do things with as little collateral damage as possible (unlike in Prophecies, where you merrily run from place to place wreaking nearly as much havoc as the bad guys do, ultimately. Sure, you save the world, but you also screwed it over a bit yourself).

ogre_jd · Jun 12, 2009, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

In the Rihlon Refuge mission, we're asked to kill the Drought. We're told that turning off the water weakens it. We're given bonus to defeat it while it's stronger. From a roleplaying point of view, that makes no sense, because in the game, I'm trying to kill it, so it makes more sense to have it weak than strong. I'm not interested in playing a game, I'm trying to save Kourna and the Elon River.

You and your party are also heroes. Don't forget that. You get more status and acclaim for killing stronger enemies than you do weaker. Doesn't hurt that, in purely game term mechanic terms, you also get more reward for killing stronger enemies than you do weaker.

As for the Rinkhal Monitors, I always assumed that they were considered a dangerous pest that see humans as a food source (rather than something that will attack because you got too close and it feels the need to defend itself), as per Uhisheh's dialogue, so when you encountered the one on the mission path in Blacktide Den, you took it upon yourself to stop a newly-discovered infestation...

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 12, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Well you are talking about roleplaying. I personally love the lore of Guild Wars too, but there is a difference between us: I make my own plots. Guild Wars is not a movie, but a game, so while certain aspects of the story are given to us by A-net, others are up to our own imagination. Since we ourselves can interact with the environment, we can not expect the game to tell us everything beforehand. If you truly enjoy roleplaying, then put yourself into the world and think about your own motivation.

For instance the Rinkhal Monitors, I personally made a bestiary role for them:

Rinkhal Monitor: A poisonous serpent-like beast that generally resides in dark, wet areas. Rinkhal Monitors can become more than a hundred years old and can be split up into two different fases: Fase 1) Young: A young Rinkhal lives isolated from others and is shy of nature. While they are fierce animals they generally stay away from areas with many humans. Fase 2) Behemoth: An adult Rinkhal, or commonly referred to as Scytheclaw Behemoth, is different from the young ones in the aspect that they hunt in packs, they bigger, they reside in dry, light areas, and they are generally more aggressive towards humans.
Why you should kill them in the Blacktide Den: The Rinkhal Monitors in the den are on the edge to becomming fully fledged adults. If they become that they will be a threat towards the Istani commoners. Therefore they are to be eliminated before that happens.

That's just an example of my motivation

MisterB · Jun 12, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Actually, the 5 Rinkhal Monitors hatched from eggs encased in a meteorite that slammed into the island of Istan. The Rinkhal larval stage is an insect-like parasite that attaches to the head of an animal and impregnates the host body with the adult form of the rinkhal. After three days, the metamorphosis is complete, and the adult rinkhal bursts forth from the host's chest cavity with the aid of its teeth and claws, feeding on the remains to stimulate its rapid growth to maturity. Once it is fully grown, it paralyzes further victims and carries them back to the nest where the eggs laid by the queen of the hive repeat this vicious cycle. Our heroes are of course tasked with destroying this invasion before the hive can infest all of Tyria.

Pretty sure there's some Marines and a Predator or two involved as well. Oh, wait.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 12, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Actually, the 5 Rinkhal Monitors hatched from eggs encased in a meteorite that slammed into the island of Istan. The Rinkhal larval stage is an insect-like parasite that attaches to the head of an animal and impregnates the host body with the adult form of the rinkhal. After three days, the metamorphosis is complete, and the adult rinkhal bursts forth from the host's chest cavity with the aid of its teeth and claws, feeding on the remains to stimulate its rapid growth to maturity. Once it is fully grown, it paralyzes further victims and carries them back to the nest where the eggs laid by the queen of the hive repeat this vicious cycle. Our heroes are of course tasked with destroying this invasion before the hive can infest all of Tyria.

Pretty sure there's some Marines and a Predator or two involved as well. Oh, wait.

I lol'ed XD
12chars

beaverlegions · Jun 12, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Do role play characters end up walking to everytown they wanna go to? Or do they use fast travel like everyone else.
Unless you actually walk from town to town you shouldnt ask for a more realistic version of the game since you are making it less realistic by not waling all around.
imo this game is totally unsuited for rp.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 12, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaverlegions

Do role play characters end up walking to everytown they wanna go to? Or do they use fast travel like everyone else.
Unless you actually walk from town to town you shouldnt ask for a more realistic version of the game since you are making it less realistic by not waling all around.
imo this game is totally unsuited for rp.

It's a fantasy world, noone asked for realism. All that has been asked for was a reason to do certain sidequests.

zwei2stein · Jun 12, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Frankly, role players have bigger issues than this kind of motivation

Lack of mundane costumes and props.

even something as simple as targeted emotes.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 12, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaverlegions

Do role play characters end up walking to everytown they wanna go to? Or do they use fast travel like everyone else.
Unless you actually walk from town to town you shouldnt ask for a more realistic version of the game since you are making it less realistic by not waling all around.
imo this game is totally unsuited for rp.

Map travel is part of the game world and it's introduced as part of the game world. You can accept that or not, as with anything in a game. Yet IN the game world, map travel is referred to. That's okay for me, because now my CHARACTER thinks map travel is possible. It has to do with your ablitity so suspend disbelieve.

But please don't confuse realism for plausibility, or what you know and what your character knows.

Fantasy does not need to be realistic, but any writer worth his salt will tell you it has to be plausible. To attain plausibility, that means you have to have some degree of consistency.

The biggest problem with consistency in most games, is the ability to rez. Surely if you die, and you can just come back, then killing any foe is meaningless, cause they'll just come back. And when an allie dies and you can't rez them, but you can rez your own team members, that pushes it too.

You choose to believe or disbelieve this. That's a choice.

But I'm talking about trying to understand the difference between what YOU know and what your character knows.

Presumably, your character will know all sorts of things you don't. He's lived in Elona, or Tyria or Cathan for a lifetime. He knows what food is there, what entertainment, what strange happenings have occurred. If the game maker doesn't fill you in, then your character may know, but you'd be in the dark.

And as other people have said, you can make up your own, but that can be problematical, if everyone is making up their own stuff at counterpoint to what other people that you interact with are making up. That's why the game should provide rational motivation for characters.

I'm not asking for anything but consistency. If some of the earlier missions didn't have bonuses in game, then the later ones wouldn't have had to. Having some one way, and some the other way, pulls ME out of the game. Therefore, I choose to talk about it, so hopefully, someone at Anet will get wind of it, and make changes to the next game, so I can enjoy it MORE.

Again, I'm not a complainer by nature, I'm taking steps to be heard for a reason.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 12, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Well you are talking about roleplaying. I personally love the lore of Guild Wars too, but there is a difference between us: I make my own plots. Guild Wars is not a movie, but a game, so while certain aspects of the story are given to us by A-net, others are up to our own imagination. Since we ourselves can interact with the environment, we can not expect the game to tell us everything beforehand. If you truly enjoy roleplaying, then put yourself into the world and think about your own motivation.

For instance the Rinkhal Monitors, I personally made a bestiary role for them:

Rinkhal Monitor: A poisonous serpent-like beast that generally resides in dark, wet areas. Rinkhal Monitors can become more than a hundred years old and can be split up into two different fases: Fase 1) Young: A young Rinkhal lives isolated from others and is shy of nature. While they are fierce animals they generally stay away from areas with many humans. Fase 2) Behemoth: An adult Rinkhal, or commonly referred to as Scytheclaw Behemoth, is different from the young ones in the aspect that they hunt in packs, they bigger, they reside in dry, light areas, and they are generally more aggressive towards humans.
Why you should kill them in the Blacktide Den: The Rinkhal Monitors in the den are on the edge to becomming fully fledged adults. If they become that they will be a threat towards the Istani commoners. Therefore they are to be eliminated before that happens.

That's just an example of my motivation

This shows a great creativity, and I applaud you for it. I used to do the same sort of thing, but that becomes a different matter in an MMO than in a world that only you are playing in, such as an old fashioned adventure game.

For one thing, there is issues in the game itself, such as families of creatures. If you had a rihnkal monitor and diseased it, and sent it into a group of scytheclaws, would that disease spread. Or are rihnkals part of another group. See in a shared world, which an MMO is, creativity works if you choose a solo experience, but not necessarily if you choose a shared experience.

As I've said on a number of occassions, I'm a writer. I've written and sold stories, poems, articles, etc. Imagination is not something I'm lacking. But then, I am also likely to look at things in terms of plot and motivation, because when I write I'm FORCED to.

I could make up a million reasons why something MIGHT be the case, but no matter what I make up, there's still the fact that Besuz doesn't find my behavior so weird that he doesn't become suspicious. And no matter what you say about what they become, how does that actually motivate my character to abandon is quest and go hunt them at this moment. Presumably, the rhinkals have been there all along. They didn't just appear when General Kayhet's treachery was discovered. So why, at this point, when I have this whole nightfall thing to worry about, would this pest problem become so important?

Sure, it's great to be able to explain things in a game, and rationalize that which doesn't quite make sense, but it also is a good idea for the game maker to provide a motivation for the character, that is different from a motivation for the player.

I can buy most implausible things, for the sake of playing a game, as long as my character becomes aware of that implausible thing. Because even if I think something is implausible, to my character it's the world, and thus real.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 12, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Frankly, role players have bigger issues than this kind of motivation

Lack of mundane costumes and props.

even something as simple as targeted emotes.

I'm not so sure I agree with this...because I think there are different types of roleplayers.

I'm old school. I started on D&D and then made my own RPG which my friends and I played for decades. I don't depend on the looks of my character and my emotes for much of anything. Sure it's nice and lovely and wonderful to have those things, and they don't hurt, but they're not much of a problem for me, and probably not for my generation of players either.

Realistically, GW was written at a time when computer limitations were far greater than the limits of imagination. Otherwise, you could design your OWN armor, as you could in a virtual world like Second Life.

Limitation in GW deals with the idea that so many types of armor exist and making more takes man hours of work, etc and not everyone cares. I see this as something that costs the company money and they have to balance the idea of spending time and money on that or other graphic issues.

My idea is something that just requires a slightly different mindset, while creating and doesn't cost the company anything.

Sure I'd love more armor choices, more face choices, more hair choices.

In fact, I've LOVE a feature for a character Nickname that can be changed as the game progresses, but isn't an account name.

For example, my character Khyr Lord of Kaoz is named Khyr Lord of Kaoz because that's what he is. I might have just named him Khyr, except that you must have a multiple word character name. I accept this.

But then when anyone in game refers to him, they call him Khyr Lord of Kaoz, even his close and good friends like Koss. I'd much rather Koss just call him Khyr or Boss than Khyr Lord of Kaoz. That pulls me out of the game too.

You're probably from a later generation of "role-players", who use the modern definition of roleplaying. I'm 47 years old and probably come from a different world. One not rooted in what the computer shows me. Think it terms of the old text adventures, where we had NO graphics, and you'll see why your issue isn't mine. lol